![[JHG]](JHGlogo.png "Howard Gibson")
Kyle Rittenhouse and Friends
Kyle Rittenhouse and Friends
As of 2021/11/19, Kyle Rittenhouse has been acquitted of all charges related to his shooting of Joseph Rosenbaum, Anthony M. Huber, and Gaige Grosskreutz. Rosenbaum and Huber died of their wounds. There have been a bunch of cases recently in which someone has gotten into some sort of conflict and shot people in claimed self-defence.
Harold Fish, a retired high school teacher, was out hiking in Arizona.
At the end of the day,
he encountered Grant Kuenzli and two large dogs.
The dogs charged him,
so he pulled out a pistol and he fired a warning shot into the ground.
Fish's version of the story that Kuenzli charged him
yelling that he’s going to get me, going to kill me,
swinging his fists
.
Fish shot three more times, killing Kuenzli.
Fish tried to administer first aid.
He could not contact 911 through his cellphone,
so he hiked out to the road and he flagged down a car.
The driver called the police.
Fish cooperated with the police and claimed self defence.
Friends of Grant Kuenzli questioned the story.
According to his sister
Grant was a wonderful, caring, sensitive, humble person.
He chose to spend his life doing things that made a difference
to other people and to him.
Other people argued that Kuenzli had anger management issues,
and could be scary.
Kuenzli had committed no actual acts of violence.
There were differing opinions on how scary the dogs were.
The Coconino County attorney’s office
charged Fish with second degree murder,
and the jury eventually convicted him.
He was sentenced to ten years.
The gun community and the self defence crowd rallied around Fish. The case was appealed, and Fish's conviction overturned on the grounds of self defence.
Arizona has since passed laws that place the burden of proof on the prosecution when self defence is alleged.
George Zimmerman lived in Florida, and he was a
Neighbourhood watch
coordinator in his gated community.
While patrolling the neighbourhood,
he spotted Trayvon Martin returning from a store
where he had purchased Skittles and an Arizona watermelon drink.
Zimmerman judged that he looked suspicious.
He called 911, and he commenced following Martin.
There have been a lot of burglaries in the area
...
these assholes, they always get away
Bloom
When Zimmerman confirmed that he was following Martin,
the dispatcher replied
We don't need you to do that.
At some point, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle
and he encountered, and shot and killed Martin.
Zimmerman was charged with second degree murder and manslaughter. He claimed self defence, and he was ultimately acquitted of everything. In the opinion of attorney and author Lisa Bloom, the case was bungled. Bloom Florida has "stand your ground" legislation, but Zimmerman never invoked it. As noted below, I believe Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter.
Gunner YouTube channel TheYankeeMarshall has an interesting take on this. There are a couple of other interesting videos on this channel. He supports the acquittal of Kyle Rittenhouse.
If the police had arrived and found George Zimmerman unconscious, Trayvon Martin would have an excellent case for self defence. 911 recorded quite a bit of ranting by Zimmerman. Zimmerman was angry, big, packing a gun, and he was stalking Martin.
On 2012/11/23, Black teenagers Tommie Stornes driving a red SUV, and Leland Brunson, Jordan Davis, and Tevin Thompson, stopped at Gates Petroleum gas station to pick up some gum and cigarettes. Michael Dunn and his fiancée Rhonda Rouer, stopped at the gas station to pick up a bottle of wine, and they pulled up next to Stornes, in a black sedan. Stornes and Rouer went into the store. Dunn objected to the loud rap music the teenagers were playing. Thompson turned it down, but then Davis asked him to turn it back up. Dunn continued to object. At some point, Dunn pulled a handgun out of his glovebox, and opened fire, hitting Davis, fatally wounding him. Presumably, Stornes at returned to his vehicle by this time. As he backed out of the parking spot, Dunn exited his vehicle and continued firing.
When Rouer returned to the car,
and Dunn drove back to their hotel room,
and ultimately back home to Satellite Beach.
He did not contact the police.
The Police went searching for Dunn's vehicle,
and they found and arrested him the next day.
Dunn claimed that Davis had threatened him with a
gun or a stick
.
There was no evidence that the teenagers were armed.
We have Dunn's word for it that he felt endangered.
Shooting at the fleeing vehicle is more consistent with a temper tantrum.
Jordan Davis' parents and some of the other vehicle occupants sued Dunn in civil court, for wrongful death and defamation. The cases were settled, and Dunn's insurance company paid an undisclosed amount.
Dunn was charged in court with one count of first degree murder, and three counts of attempted murder for shooting at the fleeing vehicle. The jury was "hung" on the first degree murder charge, but they convicted him of the attempted murders, and for firing into a vehicle. In a subsequent trial, he was convicted of murdering Jordan Davis, and sentenced to life in prison.
On 2020/08/23, Kenosha Wisconsin police shot Jacob Black, an African American man, seven times. In response to this, there were protests and some riots. This all attracted left-wing activists and right-wing militia. Kyle Rittenhouse, then seventeen years old, drove to Kenosha, picked up an AR‑15 type rifle, and proceeded to join some armed groups that were patrolling the streets and protecting property.
Rittenhouse was confronted.
Joseph Rosenbaum pursued him and threw a plastic bag
containing socks, underwear and deodorant,
at Rittenhouse.
A bystander named Joshua Ziminski pulled out a gun
and fired a shot into the air.
Witnesses claim that Rosenbaum caught Rittenhouse
and tried to wrestle his gun away from him.
Rittenhouse shot Rosenbaum, killing him.
Rittenhouse fled the scene, pursued by protesters,
some of whom yelled Get him! Get that dude!
Rittenhouse was struck from behind by somebody,
and knocked down.
Someone kicked Rittenhouse, who shot at him but missed.
Anthony Huber then struck Rittenhouse on the shoulder
with a skateboard, and tried to wrestle the gun away.
Rittenhouse fired once, killing Huber.
Gaige Grosskreutz,
claiming afterwards that he believed Rittenhouse was an
active shooter,
approached Rittenhouse carrying a GLOCK pistol.
He pointed the gun at Rittenhouse, who shot him in the arm.
Rittenhouse got up and walked away,
past some police, who did nothing to stop him.
Rittenhouse later turned himself into the police. He was charged with...
The list above is a direct copy and paste from Wikipedia.
Rittenhouse plead self defence. Witnesses testified that Rosenbaum had threatened to kill Rittenhouse and some other militia types. Grosskreutz claimed he had aimed his pistol at Rittenhouse in self defence. The judge threw out the dangerous weapon charge on the ground that the law was ambiguous, and that the firearm's barrel was longer then sixteen inches. On 2021/11/19, the jury acquitted Rittenhouse of all other charges.
Retired firefighter Raul Rodgriguez walked over to a neighbour's property to confront them about a noisy party. Convinced his life was in danger, he had armed himself, and he recorded everything on video. The conflict escalated, and Rodgriguez shot dead Kelly Danaher, an elementary school teacher and next door neighbour. The TV program Fear Thy Neighbour ran an episode called Neighbours on a Dead End, all about this incident. Rodriguez had a concealed carry license, and he was in the habit of patrolling the neighbourhood. He had a history of quarrelling with neighbours.
The Danahers had been drinking. In the video, they sound "obnoxicated". There was no way this was a deadly confrontation. Rodriguez wildly exaggerated the danger he was in. Danaher was a white, middle class man with a family. Rodriguez was convicted of murder and sentenced to forty years.
James Hoefert (spelled Hoffert in some accounts) equipped his SUV with flashing lights, sirens and cameras. He packed a gun and set to work patrolling his neighbourhood. He confronted a suspicious character, resulting in the following videos.
James Hoefert, with two small children in his back seat,
pulled up next to what he regarded as a suspicious vehicle.
The other driver said or did something
and Hoefert drew his pistol.
Get the fuck out of the way asshole!
It is not obvious what the other driver said or did to provoke this.
I don't think he had time to threaten Hoefert's kids.
He took off with Hoefert in pursuit.
The other driver brake checked Hoefert.
Hoefert pulled out his cellphone and called 911.
At least one of the children started to scream and cry.
The truck stopped again, and this time,
it reversed and rammed Hoefert's car.
I am armed.
I am about to blast this guy in his face.
Hoefert continued the pursuit.
The truck stopped again, and again it rammed Hoefert's car.
The truck took off again,
and Hoefert jumped out of his car and he shot at the fleeing vehicle.
There were all sorts of houses in the background.
Hoefert plead guilty to a bunch of charges, including child abuse. He was sentenced to three years in prison.
Active Self Protection is a gun freak channel. I love how John Correia points out that Hoefert muzzled himself and his kids as he drew his pistol. Apparently, small of the back carry is wrong. Carrying with an empty chamber is also considered to be wrong by American gunners, although Correia speculated that Hoefert would have been better off if he had not had a magazine in the gun. Correia is critical of the other driver for brake checking and ramming our Hoefert's vehicle. In a longer video which is no longer available, we see that Hoefert's radiator has been smashed, effectively stopping the chase.
Joe Horn, 61, called the police to report a burglary in progress next door. On the phone with the dispatcher, he stated that he had the right to use deadly force to defend property. He then informed them that he had a shotgun, and that he was going out to confront the burglars. The dispatcher repeatedly told him not to. Property is not worth shooting someone over, and there would be police officers on the scene.
My interpretation of the 911 tapes was that the operator was concerned that the cops would shoot Horn.
Horn went out anyway. He confronted, and shot and killed two burglars. According to police captain A.H. "Bud" Corbett, both burglars were shot in the back. The burglars were carrying false identification but, eventually, they turned out to be Columbians with criminal records for drug trafficking. Both were black.
A grand jury later determined that Joe Horn had acted within his rights. He was not charged with anything. Click on the YouTube videos and scroll down through the comments.
Byron David Smith, tired of being burgled, laid a trap. He parked his vehicle down the road away from his house. He returned home, turned out his lights and waited in the basement. Local teenagers Haile Kifer, and her cousin Nicholas Brady smashed a window and entered his house. When Brady descended into the basement, Smith shot him. Brady dropped to the floor, and Smith finished him off with a shot to the head. Kifer, who seems to have remained outside, entered the house and came down the basement stairs. Again, Smith shot her and then finished her off. Smith recorded the entire encounter on audio tape. Smith waited until the next day to call police. He was talkative...
I am not a bleeding heart liberal. I felt like I was cleaning up a mess — not like spilled food, not like vomit, not even like... not even like diarrhea — the worst mess possible. And I was stuck with it... in some tiny little respect. I was doing my civic duty. If the law enforcement system couldn't handle it, I had to do it. I had to do it. The law system couldn't handle her and it fell into my lap and she dropped her problem in my lap... and she threw her own problem in my face. And I had to clean it up.
In court, Smith was convicted of two counts of first degree murder. The jury spent three hours deliberating. There was a discussion about just what a homeowner can do to intruders, but most people and the courts, agreed that Smith's use of force was grossly excessive. There is a lot of agreement that he had the right to shoot them. He was convicted for the final head shots. Some gunners have noted the importance of calling your lawyer before you discuss stuff with the police. Smith clearly had no clue about acceptable force in self defence.
Scroll down the Facebook link above. An awful lot of people believe they have the right, a moral one anyway, to kill intruders. They do not believe in due legal process.
I am not a lawyer.
I imagine myself sitting on a jury tasked with determining the guilt of Oglethorpe VanSnootpelt for some horrible crime. Obviously, I am too stupid to dodge jury duty. My understanding is that first degree murder in the USA, requires that it be planned, and then either attempted or carried out. Second degree murder is not planned ahead of time — intent was formed on the spur of the moment. Manslaughter is accidentally killing someone. I cannot imagine a court letting me search Wikipedia to verify all this.
Harold Fish was charged with and temporarily convicted of second degree murder. George Zimmerman was charged with second degree murder and manslaughter. My understanding of this is that the jury was given the option of murder or manslaughter. Michael Dunn and Kyle Rittenhouse were charged among other things, with first degree murder. Raul Rodriguez was charged with and convicted of "murder". The references do not mention first or second degree. Byron Smith was quite properly convicted of two counts of first degree murder.
The right-wing, self defence, and gun community rallied around Fish, Zimmerman and Rittenhouse, insisting that they legitimately defended themselves. Their websites portray Martin as a would-be gangster, Kuenzli as a maniac with dangerous dogs, Rosenbaum as a convicted child molester, and Rosenbaum and Huber as mental patients. The gun community in the USA are aggressively advocating the open carry of firearms. I cannot find much gun community commentary on Dunn. Gunners generally acknowledge that shooting at people fleeing, absolutely is not self defence.
The political left did not pay much attention to Harold Fish. Zimmerman, Dunn and Rittenhouse were roundly condemned. There was criticism of Joe Horn, but it was mostly local.
Comments under the YouTube videos about Joe Horn show a disturbing enthusiasm for the immediate, summary execution of miscreants. He was fortunate that his victims turned out to be known criminals. There has not been a lot of commentary on Byron Smith. His burglars appear to have been white, middle class teenagers. The final head shots he delivered to them cannot in any way be defined as self defence.
Harold Fish managed to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Gun expert Massad Ayoob does not approve of warning shots. Hiking clubs who manage trails request that dogs be kept on a leash. Dogs running loose are not always as well behaved as the owners imagine. Many people are frightened of large aggressive dogs. The Bruce Trail here in Ontario, discourages posting about problems with dogs on their Facebook page, because people get too emotional. As with Trayvon Martin, we never got to hear Grant Kuenzli's version of the incident.
As a juror, if I am to convict Oglethorpe of murder, I need the prosecutor to prove intent. Byron Smith carefully planned his killings. Possibly Joe Horn was out to kill, but I am confident that the other shooters were not. Tactically if not legally, they were defending themselves. The alternate story is that Oglethorpe was aggressive and provocative, and that the victim reacted, perhaps stupidly and violently. Everybody was fighting, not defending themselves. MacYoung Oglethorpe got into a fight, and it ended in someone's death. You can persuade me that this is manslaughter.
Michael David Dunn, also was charged with first degree murder, and again, the jury was not willing to convict. We can trot out all sorts of arguments about white, middle class juries discriminating against black youths and other undesirables, but the jury had a second set of actions upon which to pass judgment. Dunn continued to fire at the vehicle as it fled. The fleeing teenagers were not a threat, so self defence was not possible. The only reason to shoot at a car is that you intend the kill the people inside. Three counts — attempted second degree murder.
I have not seen the movie American Sniper, all about Chris Kyle. My understanding is that early in the movie, Chris Kyle's father told him that people either were wolves, sheep, or sheepdogs, and that he ought to be a sheepdog, and defend his family and community. Zimmerman, Rittenhouse, Rodriguez and Hoefert were doing armed patrols, looking for criminals. Smith and Horn were defending property, their own and a neighbour's respectively.
We do not need amateur sheepdogs on our streets. Zimmerman, Rittenhouse, Rodriguez and Hoefert were incompetent, and menaces to the public. Horn shot his victims from behind, making it unlikely he was genuinely defending himself. Smith is a murderer. Vigilantism has a nasty history in the USA. We need to not go there.
Zimmerman, Dunn and Rittenhouse were overcharged. This may have been done to set up plea bargaining, or it may have been grandstanding by politically ambitious district attorneys. The juries were unable to connect first degree murder to the stories and facts they were presented. If the DAs had told stories about the defendants' confrontational behaviour resulting in fights, the juries probably would have convicted of manslaughter.
I am Canadian, and I am very glad I won't see sheepdogs Zimmerman, Rittenhouse, Rodriguez and Hoefert patrolling my streets.
Howard Gibson —
Email
hgibson@eol.ca
—
Last updated:
2022/05/22